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[mudbubble]

Ok, i need all of the expert opinions here. I have been talking to the person who is in charge of the Flash/Adobe product integration - and we are talking specifically about the future of the Flash timeline. Would any of you like to see Flash adopt a more After Effects-style timeline? The timeline in Flash is certainly a major organ of Flash and the wrong move could sever it, causing massive Flash hemorrhaging. The Flash timeline as it has been, is very simple, which is also it's greatest asset (imho). But having the same features and functionality as After Effects may be a very positive evolutionary direction.
Would newbies be too intimidated by it? Do we care about that? Would you embrace it as an animator or vote to leave well enough alone.

Thanks for any response.
-c
 

[JK]

Chris,
I have to admit that I am not very familiar with the After Effects timeline layout. I assume that it is similar to the timeline of most NLE's such as FCP or Primere or Avid.  I think that this is not a question to be answered by Flash animators anymore than it should be answered by Flash web site developers. It is rather an issue of integration direction and policy for Adobe. If their goal is to try to integrate the GUI and usage of all their products and to present a single interface paradygm then that's their decision. Certainly Macromedia was trying to follow that sort of path with their suite of products prior to the merger. Will this create a disruption to established users?, absolutely, will they adjust?, yes they will adjust. Will there be resistance to this change?, yes, there always is resistance to any disruptive change in the way people work. Should Adobe not change because some users will resist? no. In short changes to the look and feel interface are not as significant as features and functionality and ease of cross application integration. Whatever makes it easier to utilize the total spectrum of Adobe applications will in the long run benefit all users. IMO -JK

[HYPNOTIST]

I think the sooner they do it the better.  

[Wheels]

OH HELL YES Chris!!!!  

For newbs I'm sure this would be a bit daunting but IMO this is something that Flash desperately needs! The fact that I can't have finite control over the way Flash translates from key to key has always been the bane of my existence especially since I am use to using f-curve editor like the ones in AE/3DSMax/Softimage etc.. The new ease controls in Studio 8 look like a good start but the next logical step is to add a full f-curve/NLE editor. If we are too accept that one of Flash's strenghts is its ability to act as a "limited style" (or whatever you want to call it) animation package that allows you to interpolate from key to key then this is a must.

The big catch here though is how do you implement such functionality from a AS/code side of things? If you are gonna offer this then there needs to be a way to control such things using actionscript. Unless of course, MM chooses to make such things editable from the timeline only...I'd certainly be willing to take what I can get but the developer in me would ideally like to dynamically generate such function curves through AS as well.

My guess would be if you raised this question over at FWAK or ColdHardFlash you would get a resounding "yes" from most people.

If its too much for newbies give them a basic/advanced rollout panels or something that gives them a basic set of controls to start with and a more advanced set when they are more comfortable with the product.

Please, please, please push for this and keep me informed as too what/if any progress is made in this arena.

It's wonderful to hear that this topic is being discussed!

-k

[mudbubble]

thanks for the reponses.
i also agree, the fact that MM is already talking about the integration of MM and Adobe products is great. And they are seeking out users like us to get our advice. As much MM bashing as I hear - they do honestly care about their users and the products they make for them.

That said, My initial reaction after seeing the AE features integrated in Flash was pure excitement (just a semi-working mockup). Perhaps because seeing any enhancements to flash gets my blood pumpin. But after thinking about it more, I have come about face on it. I would have to say no to this idea but not entirely...

Here's what scares me about the After Effects timeline. It can get very vertical very quickly. Having as many as 100 layers in a Flash movie, and each one having it's own sub-menu that potentially uses 90% of my screen real-estate. You expand an AE layer and it can be very deep depending on the amount of effects and transformations.

I would borrow from the After Effects timeline, but with some exceptions...I wouldn't have major dropdowns with "effects-properties" and what not, keep that still in the separate window, what that does is make the timeline a timeline and not the working window, I don't even use the properties window in AE. So, keep things like effects and transform UI separate from the timeline panel. The AE timeline is extremely cluttered and this to me is a dis-advantage visually. right now the Flash timeline is clean and simple, making it much easier to learn and use. Workflow is critical, and with after effects, I find myself constantly collapsing and un-collapsing sub menues to find what I need. This might just kill Flash's timeline. But, I really love AE for its timeline but I also love going back to flash for its simplicity.

Also, I have no idea how to lip-sync in After Effects to an audio file. Flash is the best for this, and for that to get so cumbersome would be a huge step backwards.


Things I would "borrow" from After Effects:

1. Ability to scale though the timeline so that you can see your whole project instead of the limited views that the Flash timeline has now.
2. Color code your timeline/bars so that you can keep your timeline more organized.
3. Select an instance and the layer folder it is in opens automatically or at least highlights.
4. Ability to lengthen or shorten entire timeline accordian-style (like Swift 3D).
5. Select span of frames and have dialog that shows the number of frames selected.
6. Incorporate VCR-like playback controls into the timeline panel.

So, that's it for now - i am sure i will have more thoughts/ideas. But basically I say keep the Flash timeline as is, do not turn it into the After Effects timeline for the sake of this merger. It kinda feels like doing so, would be the by-product of the merger as opposed to what would really make Flash a positive experience from a workflow perspective for the newbie and the seasoned veteran.

I kind of expect a resounding "YES" for the AE timeline and if they did incorporate it I probably wouldn't complain, but as long as they dont "replace" the Flash timeline with it - because Flash's timeline has some very simple and nice qualities about it that i would hate to see get muddled in the myriad of drop downs and menus.

[Wheels]

I see you're point but I think its a necessary evil. I think there are enough ways to "ease" new user into it to make it worth while. Anyone who puts a minimal amount of effort into learning how to use a curve editor will quickly see how the benefits far outweigh the learning curve.

Just make sure it has a way to toggle between a curve editor/dope sheet view that would allow you to switch back-and-forth between the more tradition frame-based view to a curve editor. I was never a big fan of the way AE merges the keyframe and curve displays into one window...just my preference though. Like I said, I'll take what I can get.

I echo Hypnotist...the sooner the better.

[Ibis]

much of the very nature of the Flash workflow revolves around the current state of its timeline. It is a cel animation based system which allows for independednt cels to be manipulated and managed at will. The AE timeline however is time based and as such does not exactly support individual cels. If you remeber Adobe Live motion you pretty much have a basic idea of how flash with an AE timeline looks and feels like.

The benefits of the AE timeline is that layers can be time remapped, in flash if you want to remap time you basically have to manually insert or remove cels into any given spot in the timeline, In AE this is done automatically.

If they can incorporate it without losing the cel animation aspect then it would be great. However if they cant then you basically stand to lose the single most important feature in flash animation which is the ability to draw freehand frame by frame, using the pencil tool. Say good bye to the pencil tool and hello to the belzier pen, your new best friend. Implementing the Ae timeline in its current form would mean that to draw a happy face, you would have to draw 5 shapes across 5 layers. Each layers would only be able to support a sigle shape and each shape would have to be independently animated. Every little stroke you draw would go in it's own layer, as a result the ink & paint workflow will also be highly crippled.

I can see however an implementation of a dual mode authoring system. An authoring mode which would use the cel based system it currently has and a compositing mode which would allow for "compositions" to be further edited and composited in a non destructive form. This would be a highly powerful feature in flash if they could pull it off.

So basically the workflow would be like this; Create the comp using the familiar workflow we all know and love. and Step Two, composite the final piece using the AE type of workflow...that would freaking rock... but then again, its provally best to just leave stuff the way it is and instead just give AE the ability to composit resolution independed swf files and give it the ability to export these output without actually rendering to raster but keeping everything as vector based.... the posibilities would then be trully endless.

[Wheels]

Didn't Moho have a f-curve editor/keyframe hybrid? I used the demo a while back and don't have it on my system anymore but I seem to remember something like this. What about ToonBoom (Harmony?)...they have IK like Moho too don't they? I would assume they must have some sort of f-curve editor to support this. I think the concept of a frame/curve editor hybrid is probably not as difficult as you might think it is.

Best analogy I can think of is when using motion capture data in a 3d program...When I import raw MC data in it usually has keys on each frame (ala if I were creating a new image for each frame). However, its used in a f-curve editor environment. I can add frames, subtract, stretch/shorten time spans and even apply things like "global" curves that can be used to affect the speed/transitions of spans of individual keyframes. All this and it can be viewed in a curve format, cell format, and time span format (3 different "view" modes).

It all boils down to exactly how the user wants to animate in Flash. There's nothing stopping them from using it in a straight ahead frame-by-frame format but by adding the ability to use it in a curve editor format they can create animations that are a true mix of hand-drawn/frame-by-frame and f-curve based styles.

And if MM were to go down this path I would push hard for some type or formal hierarchal (IK or at least FK) linking/grouping strategy. It would be SO nice to be able to create a character rig and animate a sequence where there is anticipation/follow-through and not have to put a keyframe on every freakin' frame to get that ease in/out effect I really want.

I guess I don't see this feature as something that might "exclude" newbies or take away from the traditional cell-based users but something that gives those of us that use it in a more "puppet" character style something extra to crow about...a true 2.5d package (so to speak).

I reiterate however, we must not forget that this is also an app. dev. package and tying this in from a code side of things would probably be pretty tough... Or maybe don't even bother...I don't know...Maybe it is time to split Flash up into separate functionality-type versions...one for animators and one for interactive/app development. 

[JK]

I may be totally wrong, but one of the problems with adding the additional load of kinematics, f-curves and so on is that Flash by design is a render at playback paradym while most CGI systems pre-render before distribution and playback. Now the reason Flash is Flash is that it has a relatively small download file size that is rendered on the client system realtime. If you take that away from Flash it is no longer Flash it is like Quicktime or RealPlayer etc. There is already significant concern for how the additional rendering load of the Flash 8 player will function on slower clients. It will eventually not be an issue when the Internet pipe is faster and bigger and the end user clients are faster but don't skip any meals waiting for that day or you will die of starvation. -LOL- JK

[mudbubble]

I may be totally wrong, but one of the problems with adding the additional load of kinematics, f-curves and so on is that Flash by design is a render at playback paradym while most CGI systems pre-render before distribution and playback. Now the reason Flash is Flash is that it has a relatively small download file size that is rendered on the client system realtime. If you take that away from Flash it is no longer Flash it is like Quicktime or RealPlayer etc. There is already significant concern for how the additional rendering load of the Flash 8 player will function on slower clients. It will eventually not be an issue when the Internet pipe is faster and bigger and the end user clients are faster but don't skip any meals waiting for that day or you will die of starvation. -LOL- JK

true but dont forget the large population of flashers using it for broadcast - where the size of the player is not a concern.

[Ibis]

the new rendering features from what ive can tell is a sort of live rederindering to bitmap. If what i've read (and understood) is correct then the actual playback should infact be much improved. Bitmaps by nature are faster than vector rendering because all the image data and color information is already there it is a "mapped" series of "bits". Vector data is just mathematical equations that have to be interpreted and then contantly rendered.

If MM has found a way to render the final output as live bitmap data the the process itself should allow for faster playback as well some very intricate new way of displaying image data that is not possible using vector sapes alone. I'll have to wait till the software comes out to read the manual and really get an idea of how the new technology works. But essentially if what I read and understood is correct then everything you know and have come to believe in as far as how vector based technology works is pretty much out the window and a new set of rules and practices will come out.

[Wheels]

Yup, good point JK...certainly a valid question to ask MM.

However, I would imagine that the issue is more with the performance/speed of the actual application itself then with playback. A true IK setup does eat up processor cycles but that's only during the actual animation process itself. At render time the keys get "baked in"...I.E. a key is generated for every frame and parsed out for the renderer to handle. I'm assuming Flash would do something along these lines when you publish you're final .swf. such that, while you're timeline may only show X number of keys, the publishing process generates as many as deemed necessary to create a reasonable representation of the animation you defined with the curve editor.

I know that's how our 3d game engine used to work back when I was worked in the game industry. You're f-curves were converted to actual keys and then optimized to speed up playback.

Certainly you'd be dealing with a simplified IK system. Nothing nearly as complex as the types you have in any of the high-end packages (plus you're only dealing with 2 axis here...not 3). Gimble lock wouldn't be a problem and setting up things like rotational constraints would be pretty simple. Moho made a pretty fair attempt at it from what I remember. They're "skinning" process (where you linked the shapes to the IK skeleton) left something to be desired but hey...its a start.

I'm sure it would be quite a challenge to design a package that allowed for this and took advantage of Flash's native keyframe abilities but I'm sure it could be done. It would be an exciting prospect I think.

How does Studio 8 do it right now (from a ease in/out curve editor standpoint)? MM advertises a native curve editor now in the newest release...When you're running it through a browser are the ease curves calculated in real time? Up till now all you're ease sequeces have been linear (much less taxing on the player/processor I'm sure). Didn't that curve editor plugin that someone wrote for FlashMX "bake" in you're keys...like I mentioned above? Wish I knew more about this type of thing...

Anyone played with Harmony's IK system? Is it any good? Just curious...getting off track a bit I know...

[mudbubble]

Anyone played with Harmony's IK system? Is it any good? Just curious...getting off track a bit I know...

nope - but i did see it at flash forward - it has a feature called "glue" that actually reconnects joints when the separate from being bent too far! It's cool but the pricing is based on size of studio - it's not a 1-time price for a boxed version - it's more like it's designed for a complete team of animators and probably costs like 5 figures based on the level of support you want (Silver, Gold, etc...).
Toon Boom sales has called me and we play phone tag for a month - have yet to speak with them - i am curious about the price - not that i can afford it.

[Ibis]

Anything that requires more than one person to successfully operate is not something you want to mess around with in the first place hahaha. Harmony, Toonz, and similar are practically in the middle ages of animation production when compared to something like flash. What good is having some great features if it litterally requires a team of dedicated specialists to successfuly persom any single one task.

[JK]

All in all a lot of speculation. I think the real issue for Adobe is not changing applications so that they are all identical, although consistant interfaces are desirable. I think the real challange is to dramatically improve the interoprability. No one application is or should be a complete "do it all" solution. They each should focus on their strong points and seamlessly integrate. Adobe wins and the users win if that is accomplished. Customers can select the pieces they need to build their own solution and be confident that they will compliment each other and work flawlessly. For most people doing media production that means Flash, After Effects, Photo Shop, and perhaps Premiere and maybe Illustrator. They still need a product for audio production but otherwise thats a pretty good line up.-JK